Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

California has equal protection and benefits under the law. They are called civil unions. Every legal benefit afforded in California marriage is given to couples of California civil unions. The people have spoken and they do not want the word marriage re-defined in California (at this time).

What I find interesting is that prop 8 was passed in one of the most politically liberal states of this country and by a majority of African Americans and Latinos. I see the biggest obstacle is convincing California minorities that homosexuality has a place in the state's minority political leadership. If minorities don't even acknowledge homosexuals as a disenfranchised population, good luck convincing the majority of Californians.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by barryj on November 17, 2008 at 11:46 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

This comes from a guy whose religion believes it's OK to have multiple wives. Thank god we didn't need a proposition to debate whether that was wrong.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by juniper08 on November 17, 2008 at 9:42 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Because - you idiot - the 14th Amendment to the Constitution states:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I'm a tax-paying, gay citizen of California and I'm not getting equal protection of the laws. Next question???????

• Upvote 0
• Posted by 14th_Amendment on November 17, 2008 at 9:46 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Thanks for your comments. The 14th Amendment is our right, gay or straight. It's INSANE that this was allowed ON the ballot to begin with. I was a "good Mormon" for 27 years before coming out to my own truth and now live as a law abiding Lesbian who is active in my community. I pay taxes and deserve the same rights and privileges as any straight man or woman!

The active role that the LDS Church has played in this situation is typical. However, when you are a member of the church, trying constantly to be 'better than yourself' you are frankly TOO CLOSE to see real truth. I believe this needed to happen for a lot of people to wake up, in and out of the LDS Church and for the truth to be known about the LDS Church and how those in it, believe they can push ANYone around who is different.

When I speak to church members regarding prop 8, it's amazing how many people do not even have a CLUE what it is and voted blindly to pass it.

Trust me, this will not stand and I hope the members of the church will FINALLY WAKE UP!!! I have two children. They didn't CATCH my gayness and neither will you! My daughter is 18, brilliant, beautiful and a staunch republican but voted NO on prop 8. And she was successful at helping her friends at UCSB to understand the issue. It was one of the Counties who voted it down completely. GO UCSB Students!

This issue will not go away anymore than gay and lesbians will go away. This is not something I chose anymore than I chose the green eyes that are mine. Open your heart and mind. We are not trying to convert you! Just want our rights to be EQUAL.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by csommer on November 17, 2008 at 10:20 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

juniper08...

So you support same-sex marriage, but want to deny that right to others such as polygamist (which you ignorantly ignore the LDS church hasn't support for over 100 years), group marriage, and incestuous marriage?

If you don't then you are a bigot, and even worse you are a hypocrite because there is no non-arbitrary distinction between granting rights for one and not the others.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by Satirical on November 17, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

14th_Amendment...

Since all laws discriminate are all laws invalidated by the EP clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution?

I want to vote on every issue before the U.S. Senate, how dare I be denied that right? I pay my taxes! This is crazy!

• Upvote 0
• Posted by Satirical on November 17, 2008 at 10:26 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Csommer…

Yeah, can you believe people in California, defining words!!!

Next thing you know the word “homicide” will be defined and will leave out “people who blog on the Kansan”, and just be defined as “an intentional killing of another human being.” How dare they!

Later they will define the word “tree” and the all the shrubbery will get upset and we will have another 14th amendment issue on our hands. When will the people of California learn that words can't have meanings?!?!

Since you are a former member of the LDS church I am completely confident you are totally objective on the subject and don’t have any sort of an ax to grind.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by Satirical on November 17, 2008 at 10:31 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Surely you see the difference between choosing a presidential candidate and challenging the legitimacy of a vote that has allegedly stripped a minority of their civil rights. You can argue the merits of the case, but I don't see how anyone could not see the difference between these two issues.

If a conservative group manages through a slim majority to get a vote through to amend the Constitution to affect the rights of a selected group on the basis that the original Constitution surely intended for men only, or whites only, to be considered equal before the law, I like to think that we can have the chance to question the legitimacy of that vote also.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by valit on November 18, 2008 at 9:50 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

I think a better question is why has it taken so long for people to become so active in protesting a ban on something like this. As far as DOMA and proposition 8 goes, it is completely ridiculous and contradictory of everything America and the constitution is supposed to stand for. Gay citizens have just as much right to the benefits of a lawful marriage. They deserve to be recognized as a married couple just as much as a straight couple. Regardless of whether you "agree with their lifestyle" it's not your lifestyle. You don't have to live their life, they do, so really laws and bans such as proposition 8 have no business telling these individuals that the lifestyle they chose will not be recognized. It's about time this issuse has gained more momentum.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by jmlynne7 on November 18, 2008 at 10:59 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Presidental elections are slightly different than things like Prop 8...Obama being president doesn't strip anyone of their civil rights.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by lovenhaight on November 18, 2008 at 1:02 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

barryj … California does not have civil unions, rather domestic partnerships. In it’s decision of In re: Marriage Cases, S147999, the California Supreme Court identified nine distinct differences between domestic partnerships and marriage in California. So, they are not equal to marriage.

Proposition 8 wrote the religious definition of marriage of some religions into the California Constitution, stepping on the freedom of religion rights for those religions who believe marriage is between two consenting adults.

Proposition 8 is about more than marriage. It has turned into an assault on the California constitutional form of government. Does a mere majority have the right by popular vote to disfranchise a protected minority as defined by the California Supreme Court?

California and the United States do not have democracies, rather representative democracies. The three branches of government provide checks and balances. If upheld Proposition 8 would drastically diminish the power of the judicial branch of government, allowing any group with enough money and resources to overturn any court decision they do not like.

Many rulings by courts are unpopular with the general public, but were never allowed to be overturned by popular vote. Do you think we would have desegregated schools if the 1954 decision of Brown v. Board of Education had been put up for popular vote? What about miscegenation laws?

It is a very dangerous precedence to allow the rights of one group to be taken away by majority popular vote. Who’s rights will be next?

• Upvote 0
• Posted by SF_Guy on November 18, 2008 at 4:06 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

SF Guy,

The nine distinct differences that you mention between marriage and domestic partnerships that the California Supreme Court stipulated are very obscure differences that have little to no impact on state benefits and equal protection under the law. The California Supreme Court stated multiple times in the decision you referenced that, "The Domestic Partner Act generally affords registered domestic partners the same substantive benefits and privileges and imposes upon them the same responsibilities and duties that California law affords to and imposes upon married spouses"

Your statement regarding representative democracies is an interesting statement, since prop 8 and numerous other propositions have been approved outside of the representative democracy domain. California and numerous other state governments have provided the right through propositions for participative democracy. Unless the California constitution changes, average California residents will continue to weigh in directly on key policy issues and act as a check to the other three forms of representative democracy.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by barryj on November 18, 2008 at 6:44 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Here is an interesting question that gets to the heart of the point on why there is opposition to same sex marriages in California. Would supporters of same sex marriage in California be supportive of a change by religious authorities to rename the union of a man and a woman as a “holy Union”. In my proposal, marriage would be redefined as only a same sex union and would carry all the same benefits and protection under the law as the current definition of Marriage. The new Holy Unions I propose, would uphold the historical religious rite of matrimony as only a union between a man and a woman, but would provide identical benefits and protections under the law as the current California state definition of marriage.
Essentially, what I am asking is do most supporters of same sex marriage only want the same benefits and protection under the law as those who are legally married or do would they insist on redefining a long held religious rite of marriage to include same sex couples. It seems that if the same benefits are available or would be available under civil unions/domestic partnerships as are available with marriage then that should suffice? If not, then this is possibly something more than just about benefits and equal protection under the law. It could be interpreted as an attempt to force government to make religious authorities accept same sex marriages. Basically, enlisting government to force religious institutions to accept social change whether or not it is in line with their religious teachings. I agree with separate but equal civil unions/domestic partnerships aligned with all the benefits and equal protection under the law as marriage. Its called compromise.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by barryj on November 18, 2008 at 7:42 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Actually:

Tyranny of the majority: 1 Minority: 0

This civil rights movement is similar to other civil rights movement in that we will take it two steps forward and the people will knock us back one. But it is enviable that the rights of civil marriage will be extended to same-sex couples.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by davidnta on November 19, 2008 at 9:03 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

GW: The definition of marriage has changed so much in the last century that what we see today doesn't come close to what it was back then.

What type of disgusting lifestyle are we living that is hurting you personally? Are we being out so much that you can't sleep at night anymore? Are you afraid that we're going to come turn you gay (which is a myth by the way) if we are near you? Guess what, gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people are everywhere. It's not like race where they can be easily spotted.

You know some of the most homophobic people tend to be gay themselves, and they self-sabotages themselves to be accepted by the heteronormative culture.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by davidnta on November 19, 2008 at 9:07 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

GW: You are just an idiot. A homophobic, immature idiot.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by lovenhaight on November 19, 2008 at 10:59 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

barryj,

As someone who is domestically partnered in California, let me assure you that my partner and I do NOT have all the same rights as married people. A big one for us is that domestic partners are required to live together; married couples are not. For this reason, my legal residence is in California, which means that I have to pay out-of-state tuition at KU. Married couples would not have this problem.

Of course, this could be resolved simply--at least on paper--by the state legislature's bringing domestic partners' rights completely into line with married peoples' rights. As the Supreme Court of the United States has ruled, however, separate is not equal; marriage has a prestige that domestic partnership does not have, and it is unfair for the state to confer that prestige on one group and not another. This is not just an issue of vanity, as domestic partners in California have reported problems with convincing relevant agencies (such as hospitals) of the validity of their relationships.

Your idea of "holy unions" for same-sex couples would just be more of the same. In fact, I've got to tell you that it strikes me as a rather insulting sop, an Orwellian euphemism for "second-best"--not to mention the fact that "holy" sounds a religious note that seems jarring in a constitution that claims to differentiate between church and state. My solution? Marriage equality--either by recognizing same-sex marriage constitutionally, or by getting the state out of the "marriage" business altogether. Many countries have long distinguished between civil unions licensed by the state and marriages performed by the church. A couple in Mexico, for instance, has two wedding ceremonies: one at the city hall (the civil union) and a later, sometimes much later one at a church--if they choose to get married in church at all. The union that counts for legal purposes is the civil one. If I can't get married in California, I'll acccept a civil union if that's what the state gives everybody. If I can't have that, then I expect a second-class citizen's discount on my taxes!

• Upvote 0
• Posted by diegof on November 19, 2008 at 9:37 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Why is Proposition 8 being protested? As a queer student here at KU I think I've got a few pretty good reasons, and none of them go against democracy. If anything, the reasons for protesting the Proposition 8 decision are in and of themselves the upholding pillars of Democracy! He compared numbers. 52% of the votes went for Obama, and in California 52% of the votes said yes to Proposition 8. And yet, the last time I checked, MY civil rights and the civil rights of all people were not numbers and percentages! This is not merely a matter of who won and by how much. This is a direct declaration, loud and clear, that second-class citizenship and blatant discrimination are still alive and kicking in this country. It is proof that although we've come a very long way in the fight for equal rights for all we still have a very very long way to go. Thus, the question of why the LGBT community and our allies are protesting the decision made on Proposition 8 should be obvious, very obvious. You shouldn't have to ask why. You shouldn't have to wonder why we find it necessary to have rights that you already have. Its simple. We are fighting for visibility, tolerance, understanding, compassion and our very livelihood! We are fighting for something that goes so far beyond marriage it isn't even funny. We are fighting to walk down the street at night and not worry about what might happen because of who we are. We are fighting to be able to visit our loved ones in hospitals during family/spouse visiting hours. We are fighting to be able to raise families and live happily with those families. We are fighting for our right to not be discriminated against, to not be emotionally and physically abused by those in this society that still don't accept us. We are fighting for the right to fight until we get what every one should get, a first-class citizenship and the recognition we for so long have deserved. We are your friends, your neighbors, your classmates, your teachers and your family. So if you are still wondering why we are fighting, perhaps you should ask yourself why you aren't at our sides, as an ally, fighting with us.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by ericag on November 20, 2008 at 12:27 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

I wonder why anyone would want to fight for marriage? In the straight world, that often claims marriage as its own special prerogative, marriage is frequently a hollow and meaningless contract that ends in divorce and the unraveling of families. If this simple, ritual acknowledgment of love and long-term commitment has any meaning at all then it finds that meaning only if it is applied and recognized universally. Put simply, true love is true love the world around, and if our governing bodies and religious institutions can’t cope with that then we should abandon them or reform them. I think that may be what we are witnessing.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by steveg on November 20, 2008 at 2:02 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

GW - historically marriage started out as an exchange of property in order to procreate, and men benefited because they held a hegemonic heteronormative hold on women. Marriage was rooted in polygamy when it started out in Judaism, Islam, and in some Christian tradition and culture. So your polygamy argument has some holes in it.

Plus your animal argument is also strange as I can't find any good reason to how goat would or could make enough money to file taxes or that if you got sick, the goat would want to come see you.

It would be nice to call people homophobic who disagree with you, but rarely it's that simple. Some people are just ignorant to other people's stories, historical content, how we are socialized in general.

So I'm not calling you and everyone homophobic per se, I just see it as an opportunity to swap stories of how this affects my life in a deep and personal way.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by davidnta on November 20, 2008 at 7:48 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Diego,

It is an unavoidable obstacle that this country was founded on Judeo Christian values. Marriage in the United States was first a religious institution/rite before becoming a legal status conferred upon a union between a man and a woman. Personally, I believe the biggest mistake in this argument was religiously influenced law makers crossing the secular line and making marriage a legal institution. Unfortunately, it is now a legal institution and it is now a point of consternation. It is very difficult to explain to a same sex couple to appreciate the sensitivities of this religious rite and settle for a state concession of a separate but equal domestic partnership. For many gays, their lifestyle has long been rejected by most religious authorities and that rejection has often made same sex couples insensible to the historical religious undertones associated with the legal definition of marriage in the United States. For many gay couples, they only see marriage as a legal institution and are apathetic to literally hundreds of millions of Americans that firmly value marriage as a religious rite. To change the definition of marriage is literally akin to attacking their religious teachings. I guess one correlation could be made to psychiatric authorities attacking whether or not homosexuality is a genetic trait or a lifestyle choice. For most gays, they firmly believe it is a genetic trait that cannot be changed. This same unwavering belief is how most Americans believe their religious teachings have defined marriage between a man and a woman. This is why I believe domestic partnerships with equal state benefits and protection under the law is a compromise that should suffice.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by barryj on November 19, 2008 at 12:08 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Seriously? People weren't protesting Proposition 8 because they're upset about it. They're protesting it because it's against their RIGHTS. ...Which we are supposed to have in this democracy. You just made yourself sound stupid when you tried to compare this with the outcome of the election.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by sconn8 on November 19, 2008 at 3:19 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Correction: The t-shirt I mentioned actually reads "Adam and Eve. Ruth and Naomi. David and Jonathan." That way all the bases are covered.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by diegof on November 21, 2008 at 8:57 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

The really "INSANE" thing that our nation faces is not things like this passing in California but the notion that our country is a Democracy. That even here, on a college campus, we perpetuate, this again and again. No, we live in a Republic that utilizes democratic processes in voting for referendum and our leadership. Get that figured out and we can move on to other problems like the average persons ignorance to the law of the land. This is the very law of the land that says that we live in a Republic and not a Democracy. This is the very law of the land that also States that individuals will be treated equally under the law and no individual can deny any other person of those rights. I am in full support of those who oppose the vote in California but I really wish that the protesters would emphasize that we live in a Republic, which ensures everyone protection under the Constitution and not the turn out of a Democratic process.

True Democracy is an insidious form of governance. It means you settle for whatever the majority agrees upon. Under it, the Constitution is a living document, and your rights can change with the wind. This was absolutely not the intention of the founders. If you want to attempt to infringe upon the rights of the gay and lesbian community to do the same things other people do then you will have to make an Amendment to the Constitution. Otherwise these silly propositions you continue to pass will be overturned by the Courts, as they should be.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by BaneMaler on November 20, 2008 at 1:38 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Barry, The very fact that some straights are so jealous of their special privilege to marry indicates that they see marriage as superior to any other form of union. Consequently, nothing less can possibly be of equal value, even if it confers all the same legal benefits as marriage. What you call compromise I see as a one-sided sacrifice. That is not good enough. Whatever values might have inspired our Constitution, the establishment of the religions they sprang from is prohibited by that very same Constitution. Even if it were not, I expect you'd find plenty of gay Jews and Christians who would argue that they are just as much a part of that Judeo-Christian tradition as anybody else. As the t-shirt says, "Adam and Steve, Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan." More seriously, it seems to me that in a pluralistic society a simple appeal to one religious tradition is not enough. Your emphasis on the religious origins and implications of marriage simply lends credence to MY proposed compromise, which is to get the state out of the marriage business. Let it authorize civil unions and only civil unions; those desiring marriage could then go on to get married in a church, but a church wedding without a prior civil union would be invalid (just as it would be now without a marriage license). This would be a true compromise, as both sides would be yielding something--convenience, prestige, what have you--yet neither would have to sacrifice its civil rights. Including freedom of religion. Nice arguing with you.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by diegof on November 20, 2008 at 6:13 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

Diego,

I wouldn’t say that you are a diplomat, but I would agree with the approach you are referring to in regards to civil unions. Your proposal appears to be a better compromise than the one I mentioned. The point I am trying to make is that you will not get very far attacking religious authorities or their teachings and traditions, because they are too deeply entrenched in this country’s political system. A complete disregard for these sensitivities will only get the same sex movement more of the same (prop 8) in return. They may get the California Supreme Court to overturn the recent Prop 8 ban, but I can guarantee that religious authorities will not stop there. If Obama gets rid of the DOMA, you will see a backlash from both the right and the left (this doesn’t just sit on the Republican side as was witnessed in the passing of Prop 8). I personally believe that utter defiance without diplomacy and a conceivable plan will doom this issue to repeated failures followed by small legal victories. You will only energize the religious base against advances in redefining marriage (which by and far does not agree with homosexuality and same sex marriage despite your comments about gay Christians and jews). Essentially the movements methodology is all wrong, the leaders of the movement do not understand the demographics and political landscape of this issue. Until they fix that approach, they are doomed to fail.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by barryj on November 22, 2008 at 11:39 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

"Anyways, I'd rather be homophobic than homosexual."

You are a bigot.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by kshusker on November 24, 2008 at 11:44 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

The main problem with Proposition 8 - I am completely against it and think it ridiculous that anyone cares if gays get married when we have so many REAL problems to deal with in this country, but to counter your claim that "the people have spoken" - is that the people were not given the facts. Take a look at the commericals aired by the groups in favor... they are downright deceitful and mislead voters to think that ridiculous consequences will come from gays getting married.

If our country had always gone by the mantra "the people have spoken," we would still have slavery and women still wouldn't be able to vote. The only way our country can progress is to constantly analyze our constitution and the way it's enforced to see that we're giving everyone their due rights.

In this case, people are protesting because they believe they are being denied those rights. They are correct.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by kjxo on November 24, 2008 at 12:45 p.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal

Letter: Why is Prop 8 being protested?

The week before the election, Mormons sent out thousands of pamphlets falsely claiming Obama was in favor of Prop. 8 (mainly to African-Americans). The campaign for Prop.8 was full of misleading and confusing lies. That's not democracy.

• Upvote 0
• Posted by juniper08 on November 25, 2008 at 10:55 a.m.
• permalink
• suggest removal