Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I understand your debate on the issue. It is a heated debate. No one disagrees with freedom of religion. This is not even a debate.This should not be a political issue. You stated that the Mosque location is 2 blocks away. It is 2 building blocks away. Are you aware that part of the landing gear fell through the ROOF of the proposed mosque building? Here is a picture http://i38.tinypic.com/2h7jwhz.jpg If you're only a college sophmore you would have only been ten. I remember that day vividly.It felt like the world was ending to see our country attacked. People jumping from the burning buildings to their death. Watching the WTC on fire as another plane circles than crashes into the 2nd tower. To watch the Towers collapse was a horrible nightmare. To know that people were trapped & crushed, burning and dying horrible deaths. While another plane crashed into the Pentegon.We had a split screen. The Towers collapsed & the Pentagon on fire. Another crashed in PA as the President and VP were circling endlessly in the air in separate planes. & couldn't land All planes were grounded.The plane in PA was headed for either the Capitol or WH This area should be made a monument like Pearl Harbor. More people perished on 9/11 than in Pearl Harbor. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with an ideological war. Do you know the name of the mosque Cordoba is symbolic to the Cordoba Spain Muslim Victory? Americans do not have to tolerate this. Those who care will stand up for those that died. 1000 bodies are still buried in the rubble? Sacred Ground. They weren't soldiers, but innocent lives lost. People from all walks of life, religions & political backgrounds. People that attempt to politicize this instead of realizing that this is an American issue are terribly misguided.Blinded by ideology rather than the truth. This IS sacred ground that must be respected. It is the site of an attack on our country & the fallen. The families of 9/11 deserve to be respected and their loved ones honored. It would require an act of Congress making this a memorial. The right thing to do is make the area a memorial. Sorry but to me someone who wasn't even mature enough to remember the horror of that day minute by minute as it happened can't possibly relate to the days and days of rescue workers that perished also. Trying to save people in a hopeless situation. In closing, I do not have to ask myself about Freedom of Religion. It is black and white. That honoring our fallen is the right thing to do, no matter how difficult it may be logistically. This is being tried in the court of public opinion. Nearly 75% of Americans are against this. I can't see a construction worker that would touch the project. They will boycott. I guarantee you. Lastly, you are not seeing the entire picture and the reality of hallowed ground. The battlefield of 9/11 in Manhattan that includes the mosque building.

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• Posted by wicker on August 23, 2010 at 1:52 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

In 1939 very few wanted another war.

But when the war came home, America mobilized.

I am for building the mosque. I hope that we can take such small acts to ensure our enemies are confident and consider us weak. The more likely they are to act in accordance with jihad against kaffars and infidels, the more likely that 1939 will turn into Dec 7 1941.

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• Posted by on August 23, 2010 at 11:06 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

In response to "Wicker"- It is ridiculous for you to assume that the author of this post cannot possibly remember the horror experienced by our entire country on September 11th and the days that followed simply because of her age. I was 11 on that day and I remember everything you described and the details of my own experience, including the reactions of my teachers, parents and other family members, as well as my own emotions. I do not need to explain anything in detail to you that I recall because I know what I experienced, as does, I'm sure, the author of the article. Regardless of our age we, too, are a part of this country and were a part of this country on that day. How dare you doubt our ability to recall such a catastrophic event. Furthermore, the potential mosque in no way prevents Ground Zero from being made into a memorial, because, as the author states, it is intended to be built two blocks away. The two need not be mutually exclusive. We could have a Muslim community center AND a memorial to mourn the lives lost on, and in the days following, September 11th. It is an issue of religious intolerance because many people in the United States still associate Islam with extremism and terrorism. Most Christians do not accept Fred Phelps as one of their own, but rather brush him aside as a radicalist. The same is true of the people behind the atrocious acts of September 11th. They were, and are, an exception, not the rule.

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• Posted by elizabethwh on August 23, 2010 at 11:13 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I'm sorry. I really don't see the point in this whole fight against the muslims wanting to build their community center and mosque. It's New York City for cryin' out loud! There's not a ton of space in the city, and this group already owns the building. As long as it meets building codes and falls within the zoning regulation for the land it sits on, let them build it! It's their right to! I don't have to agree with Doug Compton building a 7 story tall condo in downtown Lawrence, but he's doing it with his own money, on his own land. Remember kids, we're in America, the land of the free and the brave not the land of Jesus and Wal-Mart. You gotta hand it to this group of Muslims in NYC- they are pretty American when you think about it. It takes a lot of guts and determination to exercise your freedom of religion in the face of the angry and uneducated masses.

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• Posted by sjschlag on August 23, 2010 at 11:51 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

The people citing historical evidence regarding religious/imperial victory monuments are more informed than the people who will only talk about the legality of the issue.

Case in point: Al Aqsa mosque/invasion of Israel, Cordoba mosque/ invasion of Iberian peninsula, destruction of Buddhist temples and statues in Afghanistan, recent arrest of 4 Muslim men who planted bombs outside synagogues (jihad)

Think about it: People are citing history. Other people just say, "They have the right!" One group is trying to have a conversation and then supporters of the mosque/cultural center or cultural center/mosque pop in with a non-sequiter.

No one is debating the constitutionality of citizens' property rights.

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• Posted by on August 23, 2010 at 12:02 p.m.
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No, but they are gleefully ignoring them.

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• Posted by thatonedude on August 23, 2010 at 12:11 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Has fox news, that blithering pastor Graham or local new yorkers asked the government to intercede? Has the city, state of NY or the federal gov filed suit to stop development?

No.

Out of the goodness of his heart, Gov. Paterson has asked for a discussion with the imam behind the project. Multiple times they denied him audience. Only after the issue went nationwide did the imam agree to talk. Then they canceled the talks. Gov Paterson wants to discuss the possibility of moving the mosque to another location, probably still in Manhattan.

This is not a constitutional issue.

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• Posted by on August 23, 2010 at 12:19 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

When people are being scrutinized for the simple fact that they want a certain place to (among other things) practice their religion? Yes, that is a constitutional issue.

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• Posted by thatonedude on August 23, 2010 at 12:49 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

The fact that this is a controversy at all is just ridiculous. The plan is to add space to a pre-existing, over-capacity mosque in a building that used to be a Burlington Coat Factory. Hallowed ground indeed.

Meanwhile, Muslims have been practicing their religion INSIDE THE PENTAGON since 2001:

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/05/muslims_infiltrate_pentagon

And yet nobody seems to care about that. (Nor should they.) This is just another NewsCorp-manufactured controversy meant to whip the ignorant masses into a frenzy and shield them from the real issues. Sadly, it seems to be working. Nobody seems to realize that the very same Republicans who claim to represent those affected by 9/11 voted down a healthcare bill for 9/11 first responders because it would close a corporate offshore tax loophole.

This whole issue is nothing more than a distraction. Any hatred that comes as a result is simply a nice little bonus.

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• Posted by SenorChang on August 23, 2010 at 1:03 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Before banning takes place, can we at least tax religious property first? Might help with that multi-trillion dollar debt.

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• Posted by on August 23, 2010 at 1:34 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

This article shows why "intolerance" can also be a good thing. I am openly intolerant of an ideology that praises and revers 19 mass murderers who killed 3,000 innocent Americans nine years ago. I am intolerant of those who believe God's prophet was a pedophile who spread his ideology by warfare and conquest. I am openly intolerant of Islam and not afraid to say so. The First Amendment has nothing to do with this. Why any American would want a mosque so close to a site that is the largest attack of any foreign association on American soil is beyond me.

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• Posted by Savage on August 23, 2010 at 3:54 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Islam praises and reveres the bombers? I call BS. You are rationalizing bigotry, and nothing more.

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• Posted by thatonedude on August 23, 2010 at 5:21 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Savage, the word you're looking for is "ignorant." You're openly ignorant of Islam. You're not some principled defender of America. You're a misinformed, hateful bigot. You conflate Islam with terrorism because you're too stupid to process the difference. You want to revoke an entire group of people's constitutional rights because a handful of extremist douchebags did something awful in their God's name. You're going to hold the 1 billion Muslims worldwide accountable for the actions of 19 individuals? Really?

The fact that people as aggressively dumb as you still exist in the 21st century is beyond me.

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• Posted by SenorChang on August 23, 2010 at 5:24 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Senor Chang: Here is the heart of the issue...what should a liberal, Western nation like the United States "tolerate?" A symbol of conquest merely two blocks from the site of the largest terrorist attack in the history of man? What about clitoridectomy? Honor killings? Should we "tolerate" these types of "religious" beliefs as "tolerant" Americans?

My point is that the word "intolerance" is used as a non-argument against people who feel the building of a mosque is an insensitive way for "moderate" Muslims to show they don't feel the same way toward the US as the terrorists. Furthermore, those who argue for the mosque erroneously believe those against the mosque think the mosque is illegal. NO ONE IS SAYING THIS (THE BUILDING OF THE MOSQUE) IS ILLEGAL! But, here is what the Imam (your side) has to say...http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673

I don't have one bit of trouble of being "intolerant" toward those who think this way. When "moderate" Muslims begin aggressively speaking out against terror the same way Christians disassociate with Fred Phelps, then I'll believe Islam is an ideology worth of some respect. Until then, I will use my First Amendment protected right to state why I think "tolerance", and Islam, is a load of crap.

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• Posted by Savage on August 23, 2010 at 7:14 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Savage- I agree that you are intolerant- you have effectively made that point. However, if you have some illusion regarding your own faith as a Christian- let me help you understand your own mutterings- for by your own words you have disassociated yourself with the Christian faith. Those familiar with the tenants of the Christian faith know that Christ called his followers to "love their enemies". Your self-proclaimed hatred of Islam obviously disqualifies any profession of Christianity.

It's also obvious that you are either ignorant in matters related to the Constitution of the United States, or totally disregard the values that American's have fought and died for over the course of this nation's great history. As you spew your hatred towards Muslims, think (yes- try it) for a minute that millions of United States citizens are Muslims. You aren't challenging the rights of citizens of Iran- you are contesting the rights of American citizens. Surely you understand that many an American has fought and died to protect the rights of these same citizens. You offend the Constitution of the United States and all that hold that document dear.

I'm assuming you are attending the University of Kansas in search of much needed wisdom. May you learn to input knowledge before spewing forth more ignorance. Consider me hopeful... but not optimistic.

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• Posted by MrC on August 23, 2010 at 10:52 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

We need to understand that Islam is more of an entire way of life than a mere religion.

Wherever we find Islam we find Sharia Law. Sharia Law respects none of our freedoms, disrespects ALL non-Muslims and women and gays. Sharia Law violates our constitution in so many ways it defies countint them.

Islam without Sharia Law is NOT Islam. Islam never went through a reformation. It is backwards and barbaric as it was when Mohammed led his first rampage against a caravan and stole its valuables and raped the women.

Building the mosque IS legal. Practicing the barbarity which defines Islam IS illegal.

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• Posted by Arafat on August 24, 2010 at 11:53 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Tolerance towards those who actively seek to dismember your body is cowardice.

A quote from a recent jihadist in Somalia: "We are launching a final war to terminate the invading infidels in Mogadishu and all forces from the Islamic provinces are going to take part and we will wipe out the enemies out of Mogadishu," said Sheikh Ali.

Their goal is to kill those who will not convert. Muslims killed during jihad go to heaven, so no jihadist ever feels guilty for killing them.

Tolerance can only be engaged in a civil society. When violence is used instead of the rule of law, tolerance does not exist.

To argue that there are millions of peace-loving Muslims does not touch on the root issue, the Koran. READ IT!!!!! The terrorists do! In fact, watch the videos of beheadings and see what book is being held by the terrorists.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/23/new.york.bomb.plot/index.html?iref=allsearch "he trial of four men accused of trying to bomb New York synagogues and fire surface-to-air missiles at U.S. military planes.

The four men are accused by prosecutors of being "eager to bring death to Jews."

Their words are on tape. Their actions are codified in their religious texts. Unlike the Jews and Christians who commit crimes and atrocities around the world, Muslims can cite verses which dictate terror tactics and beheading infidels. Muslims use their book as a guide where as Christians and Jews and Buddhists do not use their religions as guides when crimes are committed.

My only issue with Christianity is that I can commit any crime I want so long as I live long enough to ask for forgiveness. Seems illogical if the end goal is to instill morality.

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• Posted by on August 24, 2010 at 12:01 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Mr. C...I hate Islam, not Muslims. Please reread that opening statement to understand the distinction. Christ hates all sin as it is the antithesis of holiness and righteousness. But enough on how little you understand Christianity.

The Constitution was written to prevent an overbearing government from tampering with the God-given (inherent) rights of the people. I don't know a soul who has argued the Ground Zero Mosque is or should be a matter of legality. Everyone I know is smart enough to understand basic property and religious rights. Why you argue a point I don't disagree with seems to be a bit counterproductive. However, I have the same rights you or the mosque imam has and won't be silenced by accusations of "intolerance" or "bigotry."

My initial comment was about how "tolerance" has become a buzzword used by many to demonize the very American opinions I espouse. I further extrapolated that "intolerance" can sometimes be a good thing, case in point, the Ground Zero Mosque debate. The imam in charge of the mosque has refused to call Hamas a terrorist group, has charged the US has more blood on its hands than al-Qaeda, and has made jokes about suicide bombers instead of refuting suicide bombing. Do you find any of these ideas agreeable? If so, which ones? If not, then ask yourself this question. Do you feel comfortable with a mosque, founded by a man with these view points, so close to the site where nearly 3,000 innocent Americans (your people) were brutally murdered?

Instead of attacking my intelligence, next time address the points I make instead of making straw men arguments.

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• Posted by Savage on August 24, 2010 at 5:32 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

In 2008, Muslim men attacked school girls and their schools 680 times in Afghanistan. They used: Automatic weapons, Murder, Poison gas, Bombs, Acid thrown on faces

All against young girls for attempting to better themselves.

READ THE KORAN!

Their motivation comes from their faith. Not socioeconomic issues, transnational issues or previous oppression being avenged.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/08/25/afghanistan.girls.sick/index.html?hpt=Sbin

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• Posted by on August 25, 2010 at 10:25 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

We tried to ban alcohol. That created organized crime. We tried to ban drugs, now Mexico is "bleeding to death" as the Independent out of London described.

The change required of people who support these tyrants must come from within their hearts or there will be no change.

The spilling of infidel blood does not evoke emotions from them and neither does the spilling of Muslim blood. Until Israel is fully recognized as a legitimate actor on the world stage and all the Nazi ideology is flushed from the nationalists in the Middle East, the Koran will be abused to support terrorists.

Please look up the relationships between the Nazi party, their propaganda machines and the nationalists in the Middle East. Study the economic similarities between the economies of Egypt, Syria, pre-Gulf War 2 Iraq, Pakistan, Iran and National Socialist Germany in 1933-45.

Banning does nothing but fan the flames.

Of course, an all out war might help. But too many people think peace at any cost is appropriate. This nation and our allies should mobilize for total war.

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• Posted by on August 26, 2010 at 6:49 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

It's funny that you criticize those countries for being apparently influenced by Nazi Germany, then honestly espouse "Total War" on our part.

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• Posted by thatonedude on August 26, 2010 at 12:02 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Total war is a type of military campaign used to disable the ability for an enemy to conduct operations.

National Socialist ideology is a firmly entrenched economic, religious and moral crusade which has infected the Middle East after Hitler needed oil for synthetics.

The use of total war does not require adopting the National Socialist party line. The two are only linked in that parties, countries or organizations which adopt aspects of National Socialism usually require massive amounts of force to neutralize. They do not negotiate or compromise.

We used total war against National Socialist Germany and emerged victorious only to face the same enemy which pimped out a combative religion. I recommend reading this book on the topic: The Mufti of Jerusalem: Haj-Amin el-Husseini and National-Socialism

http://www.amazon.com/Mufti-Jerusalem-Haj-Amin-el-Husseini-National-Socialism/dp/8675585314

I don't know why I have to explain this to you for it to be understood. It seems self-evident.

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• Posted by on August 26, 2010 at 12:24 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Metacognition,

It's my belief Islam is not as much a religion as it is a totalitarian monster -- not all that different than Nazism -- masquerading as a religion.

What religion other than Islam had a megalomaniac as its prophet?

If Mohammed was alive today he would be sitting on death row.

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• Posted by Arafat on August 26, 2010 at 2 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Thanks for expressing your 1st amendment rights without regard for how it makes others feel.

Sounds sort of like the 1000 man cordoba mosque trying to be built in lower Manhattan.

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• Posted by on August 27, 2010 at 6:48 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I heard that someone is building an Islamic-themed gay bar next door to the mosque...

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• Posted by connerm on August 27, 2010 at 8:40 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Speaking as a self-described fundamentalist Christian, I believe that the Cordoba Center has every right to be created near Ground Zero. The September 11th attacks occurred nine years ago and were universal in their carnage. Muslims died in those attacks as well; it's those kind of broad impacts of there terrorism acts that gets Al Qaeda hated throughout the Muslim world. And to risk offense, but honestly, September 11th happened nine years ago. If the Cordoba group wanted to do this project in 2002, I would sympathize with the opposition a lot more. At some point, though, the world has to move on. If a decade is too soon to acknowledge the need for worship centers in New York center, when is a long enough mourning time? That's part of the problem with this country right now; letting the disasters of last decade define us instead of aiming for the American Dream of "a better future for our children."

The Cordoba Imam's intentions are irrelevant. Islam's history and role in current affairs is irrelevant. It's a simple cultural center, for goodness sakes. There's one four blocks away from Ground Zero as it is. This has no impact on world relations; none. And it's painful to see this sensationalistic story inhabit the news cycle omnipresently this past month. I'd rather hear about Bono's recovery from his back injury than this non-issue.

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• Posted by xz007 on August 27, 2010 at 11:22 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Having room for 1000 worshipers does not make it a cultural center. It is a mosque and cultural center. Since it is a mosque, there are historical elements at play.

Mosques are built for more reasons than just a place to worship.

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• Posted by on August 27, 2010 at 1:43 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Yes, clearly as an overt attempt to spit in the eye of the American people. Even if that were true, who cares?

Do we live in America? Or a theocracy like Iran or Afghanistan. Don't worry, the Founding Fathers already made the choice for you.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 1, 2010 at 11:03 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Exactly, xz007!

If they are spitting in our faces, then let them. The more we bow to their ways, the more confident they will be.

When they strike, their flank will be exposed.

Excellent tactic, xz007. When they strike again, due to underestimating our resolve thanks to people like you, we will have the world and public opinion to strike beyond Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia and Iraq.

The true fight is also going on in the Sudan and the West Bank/Gaza/Lebanon/Syria/Iran regions.

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• Posted by on September 1, 2010 at 11:41 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Um, didn't we give military assistance to many of those countries (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran) in the past?

I wonder who we'll aid this time in order to combat this new "enemy."

It's okay. We've always been at war with Eastasia.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 1, 2010 at 3:23 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Quoting 1984 implies that America is the cause of the violence and helps me to see more of your perspective.

Are you actually going to deny hundreds of years of history? Are you actually going to deny the lack of tolerance prescribed and actualized in the Koran by its followers?

I recommend watching the movie Fitna. And reading some history of the Middle East, North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula, Persia, India, the Barbary wars and how Muslim leaders conspired with the National Socialists of Germany in the 1930s which lead them to believe they could actualize their Koranic dictates. By actualize their Koranic dictates I mean conduct a 2nd holocaust against the Jews.

None of this is secret. One just has to be willing to learn the truth.

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• Posted by on September 2, 2010 at 9:19 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Okay, I'm a Christian, and I'm not that narrow-minded. Do the Crusades ring a bell? Operation Ajax? Imperial colonialism of the Middle East in general, resulting in some of the jackassery we have to deal with in Iraq today?

I don't know and therefore can't comment on your religion, but the Bible makes it pretty clear that isn't ideology that makes people evil, but people themselves. You can't just walk around the planet saying, "Oh, those evil Muslims," because that has to be the biggest over-generalization ever.

The problem with treating Islam like a religion to fear is that it shows just how pointlessly xenophobic this country has become where we have to create the artificial fear that our WASP-ish life is under threat from some "growing religious minority." In the world, Islam goes toe-to-toe with America, but I don't think Indonesia or Turkey are going to attack us any time soon. Venezuela, a Roman Catholic country, frequently insults us, but you're not going to urge a war on Catholicism, now, are you? No, instead you focus on the personal system analysis of Chavez. But for bin Laden and the like, suddenly an ENTIRE RELIGION is burdened with the sins of a few men or countries. As a Christian, I find that deplorable - that means people can dismiss my faith because of the likes of Adolf Hitler or Fred Phelps.

True, Islam has violent underpinnnings to its precepts, as evidenced by Mohammed taking over all of Saudia Arabia in contrast to Jesus's submission to be wrongly executed. But this is a religion which is the closest of all the religions in the world to Judeo-Christianity. This is the religion we have the closest common ground to. And we're treating them as more alien than Buddhism? That's a wasted opportunity. I don't care what Muslims are doing, or what Muslim theocracies are doing. I'm more interested in what our country does. And fighting for religious freedom, regardless of that religion's background, is what America is all about. To do otherwise is to spit on the stars and stripes.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 2, 2010 at 9:31 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

The Crusades would not have happened if the Muslims had not invaded Europe, Palestine and the Indus river valley. Again, read history. They struck first and they struck across two entire continents.

And as far as America's "guilt" they struck first in the Barbary wars, too.

Chavez is actively inciting a cult of the leader. He is an enemy of the Catholic faith, as his inspiration is atheistic Marxism.

Adolph Hitler abused and killed many Catholics. He also butchered Freemasons, Gypsies, Gay people and anyone who protected Jews or dissented against him.

We can be tolerant, but when our tolerance is abused then we must review whether it is necessary in that context of abuse.

I am all for building mosques, even on top of Jewish or Christian sites. We will never be able to truly defend ourselves as long as there are people like you until we are given full view of the plan for the global Caliphate.

Until you see what I see, you are aiding and abetting the enemy. So lets just let them feel good about their conquering so they can get to it already.

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• Posted by on September 2, 2010 at 9:38 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Some clarifiaction of the Crusades.

Before the First Crusade began Islam had conquered all of the Middle East, all of North Africa, large sections of Asia, and many areas in Southern Europe.

For four hundred years Islam attacked and attacked and attacked. For four hundred years Islam conquered country after country after country.

For four hundred years Islam killed, raped and pillaged.

It was only after Islam was knocking on the doors of Paris and moving northward toward Rome that the Europeans decided to fight back and to declare the First Crusade.

Learn your history before blaming the West for everything.

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• Posted by Arafat on September 3, 2010 at 9:38 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

http://www.youtube.com/user/ciceropicas

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• Posted by on September 4, 2010 at 11:53 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

This article by Kelly Cosby is about the recent debate over the planned construction of a mega mosque near Ground Zero. There have been major protests around the United States opposing the mosque, which Ms. Cosby labels intolerant and anti-freedom of religion with a misplaced sense of fear and resentment. Ms. Cosby reassures her audience that the mosque is not a place for the gathering of radical Muslims and that it is not a symbol of Islamic conquest. She then proceeds to express sympathy for the “constant scrutiny and discrimination” that Muslims have to undergo. Near the end of the article she expresses how much of a better person she is than the 75% of “resentful” and “intolerant” American protesters and how they would grow as individuals if they accepted her way of thinking.

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 4, 2010 at 5 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

:-P

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 4, 2010 at 5:08 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I'm glad to see how many people have actually done their research on the enemy who attacked us 9 years ago, instead of just taking people's word for it that "Islam is a religion of peace."

I've noticed that the individuals who wish to lecture us on "tolerance" are often times the most intolerant and self-righteous.

"If that idea troubles you as well, it may be time to reexamine your views of Islam. Coming in to religious tolerance and acceptance is one of the best ways to grow as a person." She obviously doesn't understand that Islam isn't a mere religion, and that the people of England are tolerating themselves out of existence.

As Aristotle said, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 6, 2010 at 2:56 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Bebo, have you ever considered that the 75% of polled individuals that oppose the mosque are simply wrong? Or do you simply think that the Constitution is just up for a vote? Maybe we should all vote on, say, gravity. Or maybe Kansas should vote on evolution...Oh wait we did...and then it became false in recognition of the will of the people...isn't that what happened?

Btw, God orders at least two genocides and countless acts of mass murder in the OT (Amalicites and Mideonites), so the Bible ain't exactly a work of peace, either. Is it just possible that religion is a matter of interpretation and that a few people interpret Islam and Christianity violently while most do not?

You're devastating "tolerant people are intolerant" argument is no logical contradiction at all, of course, even if you imagine it is. To be tolerant, you must reject intolerance. You cannot be tolerant and accept intolerance. Besides, I am deeply uninterested in preserving tolerance for bigots.

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• Posted by mcshawk on September 7, 2010 at 12:29 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

There are over 100 mosque's in Manhattan, this is not about freedom of religion. Rationally thinking people realize what they are trying to portray and symbolize with this mosque- Islamic conquest, they've done it numerous times before.

Yes, it is very possible that religion is a matter of interpretation, but do you really think that those who interpret Islam in a violent manner are few?

When did I say that tolerant people are intolerant? Now, that doesn't sound like me? I said those who try to lecture people on tolerance all the time are very often self-righteous and intolerant themselves.

And I am deeply uninterested in preserving tolerance for people who yearn our annihilation, or conversion. Those are the people you're tolerating.

Did you know that the planner of the mosque, Imam Rauf, would not explicitly call Hamas a terrorist organization? That he said U.S. foreign policies fueled the Sept. 11 attackers, does that not rationalize terrorism? Does it still sound to you like this is a project run by moderates?

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 7, 2010 at 1:47 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Build baby, build!

Let them get confident! Let them think they can walk over us, as the tolerants would love to see.

Bring the real fight.

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• Posted by on September 7, 2010 at 8:35 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

This isn't about blame. And the mosque really shouldn't account for centuries of human history any more than a cathedral does. But let's analyze the simplistic view of international politics on here.

Neoconservatives like to make out their opponents as naive and weak-willed. Yet history itself argues against this. Before Bush's infamous "axis of evil" speech, Iran's militant stance against us was weakening. I'm not saying they were going to offer us gift garlands or anything like that, but they were chanting "Death to America!" less. Then came the speech. Iran promptly elected Ahmadinejad, a more conservative president than they had before, and Iran was back to totally hating us. Then Obama gets elected, and whether he actually is or not, he was perceived as more respectful of the East. What happens? An election win for the conservative Iranian incumbent is hotly contested by the alternates in that country. Hunh. Interesting.

I've noticed my distinguished opponents have not yet used the word "Shiite" or "Sunni" in their arguments - a distinction that is very important to make. No, Islam is just this one big baddy out there in the netherverse waiting for the opportunity to strike. We westerners are, of course, guiltless to any of the suffering in the Middle East. We committed no atrocities in the crusade, we didn't depose a democratically-elected Iranian government, we haven't taken turns aiding Iran and Iraq depending on what's suited us, and England didn't carve up the gulf region in complete ignorance of actually cultures there when they decolonized the area.

I'm not anti-western. I'm not placing all the blame on the non-Muslims. When I was a kid, my teachers didn't care who started a fight first. All they were pissed about was that there was fighting. Let the Islamofascists rally. Their recruiting is completely dependent on the attitudes that have been expressed on this board - attitudes of cultural superiority, vindictiveness, and militancy. We can either keep perpetuating the cycle, or we can take a stand and prevent this modern day Hatfields and McCoys from boiling over.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 7, 2010 at 10:26 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Why mention the shia sunni split? Both have the same basic ideology. Shia islam is like Catholicism - only the priest can interpret the book. Sunni islam is Protestantism - anyone is a preacher

But Shia has crazy won hands down. Google " Ashura "

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=P50&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=ashura&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Yl6GTIvWN4T48AaZoKmEAg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDoQsAQwAw&biw=940&bih=478

Both desire the global Caliphate. Both demand absolute submission to Sharia.

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• Posted by on September 7, 2010 at 10:47 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

xz007, all of that is irrelevant.

Let's look at the here and now, western Europe is pretty much done for. There are some groups who are trying to save their countries from being taken over by Islam, especially England, and they're facing opposition from their own countrymen. They're being called bigots and racists, just like people opposing the mosque here are being called bigots and racists.

It's just another way for people to act like they're better than others, like those damn hybrid drivers!

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 7, 2010 at 11:05 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

"Taken over by Islam..." Yes, because the average Arab, African, or Indian professional's first thoughts when establishing businesses in, say, London, is "Death to the west!" and not "I hope this economy slippage doesn't hit me too."

Considering that France is trying to establish a national dresscode just to piss off their Muslim minority, yeah, I'd say they're being bigots and racists. In fact, Europe is more bigot and racist than America. I'd just like America not to get to that point.

Fear of minorities is nothing new. One Western country was so afraid of one of their semitic ethnicities that they decided to mass murder them all in gas chambers and furnaces. We're nowhere near that today. But we should be aware of where this kind of xenophobic idealogy has led to before.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 8, 2010 at 9:01 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

And I don't think a history of mutual antagonism is ever "irrelevant." Last I checked, no one ethnicity had a trademark on any piece of land. If they did, Native Americans would have the option to fling all the Caucasians out. Even those with Native American in their blood.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 8, 2010 at 9:03 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

The jews are the jews, the blacks are the blacks, the whites are the whites, and the muslim are the muslims. Every ethnicity, religion, race respects the laws of the country in which they immigrate, except Muslims.

There are over 700 "no go zones" in France my friend, in which non-Muslims are not allowed, and if they enter they fear for their lives.

I don't believe it is legal to walk around with a mask in the United States... Try walking into a bank or liquor store wearing a mask and see what happens.

But I hope you realize by now that I don't speak out of ignorance, nor do I believe in any religious dogma. I am simply looking at the situation from an objective standpoint and Islamic ideology is not to be tolerated. Do you feel bad about not tolerating Nazi's? Or would you invite them to live freely in your neighborhood?

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 8, 2010 at 3:46 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Yeah, actually, I would invite Nazis to live freely in my neighborhood. I'm not saying I wouldn't debate their politics, but I don't hold somebody's ideology against them personally. If I did, I wouldn't have been able to live in Southern Indiana for years without going nuts.

There are "no go zones" here in the USA, too. Compton, anyone? I guess we'll just have to rid ourselves of all non-caucasian groups to prevent such ghettos.

I guess that's the thing - you've singled out Muslims as an aggressive group. You see, that fills me with fear. Because what happens when the opinion of Muslims is shared about Christians? "Those damned religious... we can't tolerate their faith." I have a problem with that. A major problem with that.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 9, 2010 at 1:52 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

You don't make sense, maybe English isn't your first language, either way, it was nice talking to you.

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 9, 2010 at 8:52 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Yeah, we in Southern Indiana speak mainly Mandarin.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 9, 2010 at 10:54 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Apparently. Bebo91 has spoken. The even bigger irony is that I'm an English major. Awkward.

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• Posted by xz007 on September 12, 2010 at 3:45 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Dude, trolls proliferate. Just abide.

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• Posted by on September 13, 2010 at 6:42 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

To sum up the commenters in this thread... exhibit A: http://knowyourmeme.com/i/1072/original/Trollface.png

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• Posted by comrade57 on September 14, 2010 at 10:03 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

What the hell are you even talking about, do you know what you're talking about? Go watch some TV or smoke some dope and play Halo, it's obvious you can't make a useful addition to the conversation.

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 16, 2010 at 11:30 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

The moderators won't even remove kujayhawks' comments with racist terms. I think MU fans must be right about our university. :-(

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• Posted by on September 17, 2010 at 8 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Here's a remarkable link on why we should NOT trust moderate Muslims when they tell us the Ground Zero Mosque will be a bridge towards understanding.

http://www.peaceandtolerance.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129:school-trip-to-moderate-mosque-inside-video-captures-kids-bowing-to-allah&catid=7:our-statements&Itemid=39

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• Posted by Arafat on September 17, 2010 at 9:25 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

Freedom of speech wasn't thought up to protect popular speech my friend. Even if they were racist terms, which they weren't, you have no right to censor him, and shame on you for trying you communist.

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 18, 2010 at 10:35 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

To refer to people of African descent as an n* or a derivation thereof is racist. It is demeaning.

Freedom of speech and respect are different things.

This forum is provided to us by the UDK and the University. If they set a code of conduct, as is their prerogative , then we are expected to meet it or leave. Freedom of speech does not come into play because we signed an agreement stating we would meet that code of conduct.

Once again people are talking with the opposite end of their body instead of taking the time to think. Not that it matters to anyone, but I am closing my account. Kujayhawks' repeated flaming and trolling is not worth my energy.

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• Posted by on September 19, 2010 at 12:37 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I sent you a private message with the post and datestamp. It was in the gun control editorial. I won't re-post it.

You play dumb really well.

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• Posted by on September 20, 2010 at 9:22 a.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

lol no one knows what metacognition is talking about... :P

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 27, 2010 at 6:34 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

When I posted that last message it was about a word with more characters but the text editor deleted the asterisks. This is the link to the post the moderators will not delete. I already told you it was from the gun control editorial but you didn't look it up.

Derivations on racist terms are still racist. It paints a stroke across a whole people instead of the individual who is responsible.

I think the moderators don't want to keep up with the trolls on this board. The Kansas City Star will just turn off the comment boards. So does the LA Times when they issue a new article on the same story. People think it is censorship to stop offensive speech from continuing in a civil forum. I think it is the choice of the institution or organization to reduce the offensive speech. If offensive ideas are couched in satire and evoke a new perspective then by all means, provide the satire.

If it is pure drivel meant to inflict emotional pain on others it is just uncivil. We are Americans and if we are not Americans we are humans. Our respect is a crucial part of who we are on this planet.

http://www.kansan.com/news/2010/aug/27/katz-restrictions-could-cut-gun-violence/?opinion You people are hilariously paranoid. Make guns harder to obtain. Voila. Now the n n can't get them.

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* Posted by kujayhawk on September 16, 2010 at 8:56 a.m.
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• Posted by on September 27, 2010 at 7:58 p.m.
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Religious tolerance means recognizing freedom

I think you need to get that sand out of your vag**a.

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• Posted by Bebo91 on September 29, 2010 at 10:47 p.m.
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