Politically Correct: The ethics of torture tactics

Dear Kansan, Why do you allow Chet Compton to make things up? He is a liar. The underwear bomber continued to talk after he was given his rights. The Bill of Rights never mentions "US citizens." It applies to all people. Remember Timothy McVeigh? He was a terrorist. He got a trial. That's how it works. If you don't like it, you should lobby for an amendment to the constitution that covers terrorism. Right now, there isn't one, which doesn't mean that you can torture or murder or do whatever you want to "terrorist."

I'm sorry facts get in the way of the stuff you like to make up, but that's how it works. Here, read the Bill of Rights. If you don't like it, maybe you should stop being an American citizen. The relevant passage:

* Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

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• Posted by PatrickEwing on March 5, 2010 at 11:14 p.m.
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Politically Correct: The ethics of torture tactics

Fun facts from foreignpolicy.com http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/05/the_lwot_the_underpants_bomber_talks_millions_for_the_ksm_trial:

Sen. Mitch McConnell, the Republican minority leader, asserted that Larry King is a better interrogator than the FBI. In response, Attorney General Eric Holder released a five-page letter defending Mirandizing Abdulmutallab and trying him in a civilian court. Other Democratic officials noted that the legal interrogation didn't make Abdulmutallab clam up.

Indeed, in Senate testimony on Feb. 2, FBI Director Robert Mueller said that Abdulmutallab had detailed his time in Yemen and given up important information on radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki. Abdulmutallab reportedly began talking at the urging of family members flown from Nigeria to Michigan by the U.S. government. The Wall Street Journal profiled Abdulmutallab alongside the man who first raised alarms about his radicalization -- his father.

And The Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303490.html?sub=AR:

Zazi's guilty plea on Monday provided a much-needed political victory for U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and U.S. President Barack Obama, who have come under criticism from conservatives calling them soft on terrorism.

Zazi, 25, admitted to receiving al Qaeda training and plotting a suicide bomb attack on the New York subway system, pleading guilty to three felony counts that could put him in prison for life -- all after being read his rights and given a defense lawyer in civilian proceedings.

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• Posted by PatrickEwing on March 5, 2010 at 11:45 p.m.
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Politically Correct: The ethics of torture tactics

The three writers missed a very important point (though one did mention it); how do you define torture? That has been a problem from the beginning. We can all agree that physical actions designed to induce pain, suffering, and physical disability qualifies as torture. What if there is no disability? Probably torture if it meets the other two requirements. Now what the U.S. states has been doing induces suffering, but no physical disability or real pain. Most of any pain is through fatigue, repetition of movement, and forced immobility. Kind of like the pain experienced by football players or soldiers in training. There are humilation and exhaustion tactics that have been experienced by students subjected to hazing and soldiers going through rituals like the crossing the equator ceremony. Okay waterboarding... No permanent physical damage, the humilation of being totally helpless, the fear of drowning... Not torture??? Okay what are we trying to get out the subjects? Information that could save American lives of soldiers and civilians. The Islamic radicals do not deferentiate between non-combatants and combatants. We do... So ask yourselves what would you do to save the lives of your family, your friends, some associates, or innocent people you don't know? Are you willing to let them die so you can feel good about standing on your principals. You have that option but the military does not have the option. They have been ordered to save American lives anyway necessary. Historically the U.S. has held enemy combatants for the duration of the war. Many German soldiers were held in Kansas near Paola. By many I mean thousands and thousands. They did not have rights under our constitution so forget that argument. They had rights under Geneva because they wore uniforms and were clearly combatants. Early in World War II eight German soldiers came ashore in Florida as saboteurs. One of them contacted the authorities and they were all captured. Most of them were executed including the turncoat. Military tribunal and no civilian lawyers. Method of execution; hanging as befits spies and traitors. All I can say to the first two writers; do not join our military, do not try to get into a position of authority where you hold lives in your hands, and withhold your criticism from those who have the chops to make the tough decisions.

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• Posted by Calvin on March 6, 2010 at 1:10 a.m.
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Politically Correct: The ethics of torture tactics

Dear Patrick,

Trying to blow up a commercial airliner in the name of Jihad is an act of war. Much like the German soldiers of WWII who were caught spying in the US, these enemy combatants have NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. They have no right to counsil or a civlian trial. The unsuccessful war crimes of the underwear bomber should be tried in a military tribunal and he should be executed ASAP. Holder's weakass should be fired for even dreaming of putting enemy combatants on civilian trial. Their actions are acts of war, not mere crime.

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• Posted by Savage on March 8, 2010 at 3:48 p.m.
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Politically Correct: The ethics of torture tactics

Hold on- First of all, acts of war can only come from a recognized nation with a military and by a military force. Not because some radical citizen flies to another country to blow something up. If an American citizen took it upon their self to fly to South Africa and start blowing stuff up, it would not mean that America is at war with South Africa. You need to wake up. The problem with these arguments is that conservative Americans fail- and i mean horribly FAIL- to use any logic, or reasoning whatsoever. Conservatives fail to draw conclusions on facts and experiences and instead use suppositions and assumptions to justify everything you say and do. You should look at it this way, and try not to get confused.

As a representative of the US, Eleanor Roosevelt chaired the Human Rights Declaration along with a myriad of other countries. However, this declaration was to the people of the world, not only to the people of the countries that signed the document. Are you following here? Is this making sense? So when President Bush created an executive order allowing the use of torture...wait for it...He committed an act of war, against the whole world. AHHHAHHAH, and the crowd goes wild!!!!!!!

Now, if you want to get technical...the country of every person detained and tortured by the US, has had war declared on them.

That's why it belongs in a trial setting. That's why due process cannot just be recreated to fit your conservative viewpoints and establish injustices on other people and other cultures. That's why real Americans want to hold on to their integrity!

Do I want people to die from terrorism...no. But I am also not stupid enough to think that I can protect myself and my family 100% of the time. Nor do I think the key to its success is the torture of people that MIGHT have information. Christ, why not just start torturing all the drug addicts, so they tell the police where the dealers are, because we have a war on drugs. Its likened to the arguments of a cheating wife on some tv drama...my husband forced me into another man's arms. LOL Is that what terrorists are doing, forcing America into bed with the devil? Is that the only solution conservatives can come up with for protecting this country. I think you should let people smarter, and more creative than you have the decisions. It is obvious that you are missing critical thinking skills that are extremely important to the functions of policy and governance.

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• Posted by hold_on on February 5, 2011 at 12:40 p.m.
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